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Early test show that the clear resin IS lost-wax castable!

Monger Designs
posted this on July 05, 2013 03:47 PM

I was able to cast some test pieces and they came out great. I will post some pictures in a few days.

 

 

Comments

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Jared Matsushige

Awesome, that's excellent news! A lot of people are going to find this info very useful. :D Pics! Pics!

July 05, 2013 08:38 PM
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Justin Tan

That'd be good to see! 

July 06, 2013 12:52 AM
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Monger Designs

Here it is. The early casting test in sterling silver.

Keep in mind that the objects printed were not meant for casting. They were printed as a test of the machine on the 100 setting and the supports were all over it using the default settings, and it's very rough. For jewelry, we would need to be able to move the supports around for optimum placement.

All these are straight out of the oven. No tumbling. No cleaning. No filing or polishing. All the imperfections (or detail) were on the resin.

The cross came out surprisingly well. Even the thin frame around it is intact, which is awesome.

Also here is a ring that was printed and casted. There is some distortion on the ring, but that's from the print, because I used minimum amount of supports and the ring was distorted.
The prongs came out perfect, which was a big concern.

We are in the process of casting a bracelet (photo included). It's getting ready to be casted this weekend. I will post pictures after it is casted.

July 06, 2013 07:03 PM
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R.Vincent Erb

I dont know much about lost-wax casting, but its interesting & I like your cross design!

July 07, 2013 01:10 AM
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Will Walker
Formlabs

Fantastic tests - great flow through your supports and fine detail.  Can you share the type of mold material you used for the cast?  What kind of cleanup process  are you planning on using?  I'm fascinated!

July 08, 2013 12:10 PM
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Bob Krug

I am in the process of casting some models as well. it seems to be much like casting walnut shell, the stuff doesn't melt like wax just burns. I haven't seen much expansion like earlier thought and it doesn't have much smell or smoke much either. I think that's good. I will be posting my pics as well at the end of the day.

July 08, 2013 02:49 PM
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tony

Hello

It's looking very nice!!

I now there is a resin that is special for the lostwax methode. But if this working then it is briljant!!

 

How long wil it take to print a ring with 100 settings?

 

Is it also possible to print  more percisely?

 

 

 

July 10, 2013 06:48 AM
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Monger Designs

The ring on the 100 setting took 1:15 to print.

July 10, 2013 01:11 PM
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Monger Designs

Here is the bangle casted in brass. I took 2:20 to print.

 

Printed at the 100 CLEAR setting, it did not come out as smooth and clean as the same bangle printed at the 100 GREY setting.

 

I hope Form Labs can weigh in on this. Should we just print everything on the GREY resin setting?

July 10, 2013 01:23 PM
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Bob Krug

What type of casting are you doing ? vacuum-centrifugal-induction? I use vacuum and my castings did not come out as good as yours but I may have burnt them out to quickly.

July 10, 2013 02:53 PM
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Monger Designs

I think the trick is,  leave it in on a low temp for an hour or two before burning.

 

I'm not the one doing the casting, or else I would give more details on how it's done.

July 10, 2013 03:30 PM
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tony

Hello Bob

 

What did you cast ? i think also that the temp is very important to burn the model out.

July 11, 2013 07:11 AM
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Bob Krug

I casted a robot from G. Wygonik and a Mushroom that I did. These are the second castings and my results are not as good as the others. There could be many reasons for this. Type of caster- Type of casting investment- length of burnout schedule. The castings in the picture I used about a 10 hour burnout. It looks like the resin eats into the investment when it combusts. I noticed in the other pictures the pieces are not that heavy so not as much resin to burn. I'm going to try some other things if I can get some more prints.

July 11, 2013 12:34 PM
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Abbas Saleh

HI!

Great results! Can't wait to print my own designs and cast them! :)  A few days ago i asked my casting company if they would take my form 1 prints for casting. They wanted to know some facts before doing so.  Would you be so kind and help me out here?

What kind of material did you use to embed the print? Any special casting methods, like overheating the material, so that it flows better? 

July 12, 2013 08:22 AM
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Bob Krug

I will help out as much as possible! My investment is Kerr Satin cast 20. I think the flasks should be heated very slow and make sure you keep it at 1350 to 1400 F for at least 2 hours so the ash burns out all the way. Keep in mind the resin does not melt! so it acts more like wood and kind of a funny thing it smells like dirt when it burns.

July 12, 2013 12:04 PM
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Abbas Saleh

Thank you very much! Thats very kind of you! As soon as my printer arrives, i will test it! Really looking forward to it! :)

July 13, 2013 05:13 AM
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Ben Proctor

The castings look ok but not perfect yet... still some area's which are éaten'in the metal... maybe you need to cure the resin longer?

I saw somewhere someone used to spray a bit of silicon on the cured resin jewelery print before the casting proccess. It might help protect the resin from reacting with the gypsom / plaster - creating thouse annoying cracked - ruff surfice. If you have a chance maybe it's worth trying out.

I'm sure everyone appreciate's you sharing your photo's. great job - thanks.

 

July 13, 2013 06:33 AM
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Paul Finelt

Ok you jewelers - Here is the low down on getting a good casting out of ANY acrylate... in standard gypsum-bonded investment -  Kerr Satin Cast 20, et al

The following ASSUMES YOU HAVE GOOD AIRFLOW IN YOUR OVEN. GAS-FIRED OVEN PREFERRED.

1. Keep the volume of resin you are burning out to a minimum. (NO SOLID SPHERES)

      a. this applies to the part(s) themselves as well as the TOTAL resin weight.

      b. Use a small flask-  it forces you to keep the resin volume low.

               1. it has the added benefit of better temperature control inside the flask ie your flask temperatures are more likely to match your controller/desired oven temps

     c. DO NOT OVERLOAD YOUR BURNOUT OVEN.

     d, notice the parts that others have had success with and those that have failed.... ( the key factor is the Volume / Area ratio - solid spheres=failures )

2. DO NOT ATTEMPT TO STEAM DE-WAX THIS MATERIAL. It doesn't.

     a. Don't even steam de-wax the sprue/tree. You are risking failure.

3. Wait AT LEAST two hours (preferably 3-4 hours) after investing before you move (yes move) the flasks.

     a. standard practice , but I'm reminding you... touch the flasks after you've set them aside to dry and you are looking for trouble. Someday you'll find it.

4. Burnout Cycle

     a. Dry the Mold & Dewax the sprue/tree - minimum 2 hours at 200degF for most flasks sizes.

     b. Get the Acrylate out before the investment goes through it's weak temp - ramp from 200degF to 550-600degF as quickly as possible. Hold for 1 hour.

     c. Finish the burnout cycle -  Top out at 1200degF for your normal hold time.

     d. drop to your casting temp - hold at least 30 mins before casting

 

Have fun.

July 14, 2013 12:30 AM
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Paul Finelt

Please:

1. don't burn(overheat) the metal  and/or use 100% scrap or filings and blame the resin for your poor castings.

2. Write down / take pictures  (gather data) on what you've done... so you can learn from failure.

3. Share your results,  as I've just shared my 40 years of casting experience with you.

4. Try platinum investment.

5. Try other investment powders

6. Try investment hardening additives.

7. Share your results.

"The big secret is ... There are no secrets." - A.F.

 

July 14, 2013 12:39 AM
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tony

Paul ,Thank you for the explanation and tips!!

July 15, 2013 06:58 AM
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Perry Engel

First, thanks to Monger Designs and Bob Krug for posting their casting photos.

much appreciated as this is the primary reason I ordered the form1.

also thanks to Paul Finelt for his casting information and expertise.

I would add to Paul's comments the following.

If you are new to lost wax casting, centrifugal casting

will probably give you less problems than a vacuum casting setup.

Centrifugal seems more forgiving of imperfect temps etc.

That being said, a vac system is more compact and can do quite well.

(it just can be frustrating (especially if you put LOTS of work into a wax,

and it comes out with porosity))

 

 

July 15, 2013 07:29 PM
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Paul Finelt

Thanks, Perry.

The debate over centrifugal vs. vacuum assisted casting will go on... forever I imagine. 

I would note that (as with anything we do) casting is a system... each step in the process depends in some way on others in a very inter-related manner. Understanding how the parts fit together/interact in YOUR shop is the key to making an process work. But you have to grasp the fundamentals.

I have been able to say "I screwed up, but I can fix it..." with confidence because of that knowledge.

Failure can be a great teacher.  ;-) 

 

BTW - the single most misunderstood operating factor in centrifugal casting is rotational speed and it's effect on casting quality. Too fast will cause erosion but it's enhanced when the gating/sprueing system is poorly designed & understood. Switching from one casting method/machine to another without changing the sprues might not yield better castings...

 

July 15, 2013 08:30 PM
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Bob Krug

I have used both methods of casting and currently I use vacuum. I found that most of the reasons why i get porosity is from wrong sprueing or bad metal, some times burning the metal. In the case of this resin I believe there is a problem between the investment and the resin( when it burns it eats at the investment). I am getting some platinum casting investment to see if it works better. Now I could be wrong but I have done 2 separate castings now and had similar result both times. The second casting was slightly better after doing a much slower burnout.

July 16, 2013 02:53 PM
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MARCELO COSTA

BOM DIA COM ESSA MAQUINA EU CONSIGO IMPRIMIR  EM RESINA RCP E WIC100.

July 22, 2013 08:23 AM
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Perry Engel

responding to MARCELO COSTA

I think the materials used by envisiontec might be covered by patents (just a guess)

That being said, if plaster erosion durring burnout is the sticking point of the form1 plastic,

it might be worth experimenting with a thin wax dip (I will no doubt try this once i have a machine to

test with). I would guess the following might be worth a try.

hot wax (to the point where it is very low viscosity) dip and shake off excess to achieve a very

thin coat of wax. This could have several advantages, minimizing layering lines a interface

to the plastic that might allow for physical expansion durring burnout.(of course this might not

have the desired effect, but it is worth a try)

Alternatively if someone was to "leak" the composition of the nanowax photopolymer we might be able to

mix up our own "open source" version.

July 23, 2013 03:21 PM
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Perry Engel

Hi,

I just read thru the best practices paper on the envisionted site for PIC 100.

the jist is to fully cure the object (ie uv light to all sides)

followed by a spray with krylon fusion (3 coats recommended with 15 min drying between coats)

They recommend a long burn-out and give examples for two different investment types (Plasticast and Doc Robinsons)

so fusion might be worth a try as well

 

July 23, 2013 03:31 PM
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Perry Engel

sorry for the multi-post made a spelling error in previous post.

envisiontec   not envisionted (fat fingered on first post)

I would give the url but don't want to cause problems for the formlabs folks so just google it if you want to find the papers.

July 23, 2013 03:36 PM
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Bob Krug

After doing more research I found out there is another investment that is designed for materials that expand. I have ordered some and should be here shortly. I think this is the ticket. I will post results when I have them.

July 23, 2013 04:11 PM
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Monger Designs

After doing some more tests, we came to the conclusion that the clear resin is not really suitable for lost-wax casting. We did have some good results, but with a lot of trial and error, and it's just not worth it. The ratio of failed castings to OK ones is too great.

 

I hope form labs will release their lost-wax capable resin very soon. We really like our Form1 and don't want to sell it.

 

July 30, 2013 01:51 PM
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Bob Krug

I have to agree with Monger Designs! I have done about 10 different castings and have not had any of them suitable for production.  The results might get better doing induction casting but as far as vacuum casting it hasn't worked for me so far. I would think that Formlabs would be working on a castable resin because there are a lot of jewelers that would grab one of these printers if it worked on the casting end of things.

July 30, 2013 03:30 PM
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Sam Jacoby
Formlabs

We're well-aware of the value of castable resin, and it's one of our top-priorities in terms of resin development. We have some new resins in the lab that we're experimenting with and hoping will come out well.

July 30, 2013 04:52 PM
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Monger Designs

Hi Sam,

 

I imagine the new resins will be some sort of wax-based polymers? Because that would work the best.

 

Do you know approximately when we can see these resins for sale?

July 30, 2013 05:47 PM
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jorge serrano

good morning
I'm interested in the purchase of a machine for prototyping jewelry pieces but would need please if anyone of you and want to help me do a test print of the model attached as document. For printing quality jewelry must be really good because the pieces are very small and small details are present in all parts. I would ask someone of you please if you have programmed the machine to print if you wanted to print the attached model to see how it looks with the machine prototyping formlabs
I also pedieria someone of you I see they are doing tests to know if the resin casting with printing machine used for casting of jewelry and presents no failure when casting
thank you very much for everything and hope if anyone wants to help me to print the model of the ring and see the quality of printing

August 08, 2013 05:47 AM
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Klaus Leitl

jorge serrano

I don´t have the printer yet and I have no experience in printing (I know 3d-printing only in theory). I looked at your ring and I found two areas that might cause problems when printed.

look at the attached screenshots there you can see little gaps. I don´t konw if I´m right but I think for printing you need a really "clean" mesh.

cheers

Klaus

 

August 08, 2013 09:16 AM
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Andrew Werby

Even if  those areas circled above did print without any problems, that doesn't mean they would cast well. Any sharp interior cracks like that will translate into sharp projections that stick into the mold. Since they are only made of plaster and silica, that means that they are subject to erosion when the metal enters the mold with considerable force. Any little pieces of investment like that which break off into the mold cavity will translate into voids in your castings, usually just where you least want to see them. Design your parts with smooth transitions, and your castings will come out a lot better.

 

Andrew Werby

Juxtamorph.com

 

 

 

 

August 21, 2013 12:25 AM
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Mark McFarlane

Hello, casting direct from the the Form 1 is important to me too. This machine doesn't have the detail quality of other printers. Small parts are hard to get the detail for the designs. I will be designing to it's cappabilities. Still the need for the reisn to cast is the most important. There are good investment compounds that are made for casting plastics, ultravest and plasticast, are two of them. Both can go to very high temperatures.  A slow and long burnout cylce is needed. the top end being about 1560 and held for 2 hours, and a casting temperature of 1100. They are very good on expansion and surface smoothnes.

The other investigation is into another resin. There is one called Somos ProtoCast 19122. This is a sla resin with investment casting ablities. The company that sells in th USA , sells it as it is packaged to them in 10 kilo bottles at $2640.00.  There is no sample size offered. If there was a number of us who would like to try this resin we could buy the 10 kilos and divide it up between the parties. This might be a short cut instead of waiting for Formlab to come up with one of thier own. If anyone is interested  you can reach me at mcfarlane@studio29.hrcoxmail.com.   

August 26, 2013 03:14 PM
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Ben Proctor

Hey Guys,

Does anyone know 'digital wax'printers? I think they are based on the same technology,

maybe it's worth ordering some resin from them to see if it works with the form1...?

Did anyone have any more success with the casting?

August 28, 2013 03:04 PM
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Deepak Mehta

@Ben, the wax printers are a different tech (they are more like inkjet printers for wax) and the wax prints can be used to set stones in wax before casting as well, but resin prints are merely for casting, you can not set stones in the resin prints before casting (please prove me wrong!)

August 29, 2013 10:44 AM
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Ben Proctor

@ deepak

I ment DWS's 'digital wax' thats the name of the model, printers....

And yes you can set stones in resin model's, you just need to know how ;)

Best,

 

Did anyone try using the b9 resin on the form1 for casting?

 

September 02, 2013 12:01 AM
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Deepak Mehta

@Ben 

http://www.dwssystems.com/cms/file/downloads/schede/irix_technical_... this sounds very interesting...

BlueEdge Laser sounds a lot like Form1 compatible :)

 

September 02, 2013 07:06 AM
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Ben Proctor

Can anyone run me a test print on the form1? - paid

 

Thanks

September 02, 2013 08:36 AM
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Deepak Mehta

@Ben if you find somebody who can do this, please let me know... I am looking at getting a few samples printed too!

September 05, 2013 03:45 AM
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Kevin Blake

@Ben I'd also be very happy to pay for a print or two. If you find someone please let me know.

September 05, 2013 04:44 AM
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stephen schirle

anyone in the los angeles area doing this lost-wax-casting with the form1 prints successfully, please contact me i'd love to have some prints molded/casted. email me,

stephen @ seriks .com 

September 15, 2013 11:37 PM
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federico salvatori

Hi everyone,

I'm an italian jeweler.. i saw the form 1 and i think that it's really useful.. but as you all i would like to try to cast some pieces.. so is here anyone who could print for me and send me the printed pieces?? i'll post the resultin order to improve the research of this aspect.. maybe formlabs will develop a casting resin.

Here in Italy ( specially in Vicenza and in Rome) the research in jewerly field is very important a lot of people is using 3D Printers and cating process to get jewel.. The form 1 would be very competitive and useful.. i think is the same story all over the world...

Thankk you all :)

 

October 03, 2013 06:52 AM
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Monger Designs

We need the castable resin for the FORM1 as soon as possible. Every similar SLA printer offers castable resin, so it must not be "rocket science" to develop. It just comes down to whether or not the jewelry sector is a high priority for Form Labs or not. And if it's not, we deserve to know, so that we can sell our printers and get something else that does support castable resin (B9 creator, DigitalWax Systems, Asiga, Kevvox, Envisiontec)

 

@ Ben Proctor. I tried printing with the b9 red resin and what happened was, the initial layers and until about half the print comes out almost perfect, but then you start seeing thickening of the print and degradation of the print, because the pigment starts to settle and is not being mixed enough using the tilt peel mechanism. I suppose the b9 resin is a little too liquid for the form1 and the pigment settles fast. I would love to try the DWS castable resin from RioGrande, but it's about $350 with shipping. Anyone want to go half and half with me and test it?

http://www.riogrande.com/Product/DigitalWax-DC500-Casting-Resin-for...

 

October 03, 2013 12:46 PM
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omri ezer

@ Monger, not each printer which claims to have a castable resin do so. most of them are tricky.

 

also, if anyone can offer me the option to print me models for trail (with decent payment). please make contact with me- omri.ezer@gmail.com.

 

i believe we can do the casting process pretty well at our facilities.

 

 

October 30, 2013 06:57 PM
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Monger Designs

@omri ezer

 

Also, not all casters who claim can cast pretty well can cast resin prints. I've casted envisionech prints for people who already gave up on the machine because the casting gave them so much trouble. I've casted b9 prints with ease, and they claim their resin is castable, and it really is. Almost as good as wax I would say. Most casters out there are used to casting wax and the resin is a new thing for them (it's not the same as casting plastic either)

October 30, 2013 07:09 PM
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Mark Strohbehn

Monger, great job on testing and documenting your progress with custom resin mixtures!  I'm a dental lab guy and am after the highest possible print resolution and good casting of the resin, like you jewelry guys.  Keep up the good work.

 

Have you seen my dental lab casting-related thread (https://support.formlabs.com/entries/25139228-Dental-lab-tests-prin...)? I've done some testing with the Form1 resin and it's worked perfectly using my standard Microstar High Strength investment.  My point is, I'm not sure your resin needs to be changed.... you may just need to use a different investment.  Take a look at my procedures in that thread if you haven't already done so.  I use a 14 minute bench-set time after investing, then go straight into a very hot burnout oven for 1 hour, then cast the piece.  It's worked every time with a nice dense, smooth casting.  I've even tried it with pressing glass into the mold too, and the glass came out clean.  The resin burns out with a lot of smoke initially, but it does burn out completely at high temperature from what I've seen in my intitial tests.

 

My castings are fairly small compared with some of the pieces you are doing, but with a little longer burnout time it should still work fine.  Also, the Microstar HS investment is very hard, so breaking the piece out takes awhile compared to other soft investments.

 

Have you tried other investments yet?

 

 

November 05, 2013 09:26 AM
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Monger Designs

Mark, thank you. I did try different types of investment (mainly satincast and plasticast). I'm sure those dental investments are not cheap ;)

 

It should be relatively easy to cast pretty much any plastic, however for jewelry you need to cast tiny prongs and fine detail. The current resin just doesn't cut it.

 

We are working on testing another resin form digital wax systems, and should be posting the results soon on another thread.

https://support.formlabs.com/entries/28092333-New-hybrid-resin-mix

November 05, 2013 12:01 PM
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Emiliano Grimaldi

Hello everyone,

If you require some 3D samples printed, I can help.
Pease send me an e-mail at nessigigi@gmail.com.

Best regards,
Emiliano

November 07, 2013 06:17 AM
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Stephen Capp

I came across this article the other day on the Ganoksin website. It's a type of casting plaster that gets really hot and can be used to reduce production times and is used to burn out rapid prototyping materials.

 

Could this be an option? Maybe this with a a regular burn out cycle could result in a clean mold for casting?  

 

You thoughts?

 

Here's the link to the article:

http://www.ganoksin.com/borisat/nenam/revving_the_burnout_process.htm

 

And the site for the product - scroll to the bottom of the home page for more tech info

http://www.docscasting.blogspot.ca/

November 12, 2013 09:25 AM